Informal workers in the just transition to a green economy

Diane (0:36–1:12):
Hi. My name is Diane Archer. I’m a Senior Research Fellow in the urban cluster at the Stockholm Environment Institute, or SEI, in Asia. In this episode of our podcast series, we want to talk about air pollution in the world of work and how we can ensure a green transition in the labour sector today. I’m joined by Mr. Eric Roder from the International Labour Organization, or ILO. He is a specialist on green jobs, climate action and resilience through just transitions. Eric, welcome to the podcast.

Eric (1:13–1:17):
Thank you so much, Diane. I’m very fortunate to join the podcast.

Diane (1:19–1:35):
Great. We look forward to the conversation. So, maybe we can start with a question about how the ILO defines a transition to a green economy, and what this means for transitioning the types of jobs that people do?

Eric (1:36–2:36):
First of all, let me give you a definition of what a just transition is. According to the ILO, a just transition is both a process and a goal—one that involves undertaking climate actions that equally advance job creation, social justice, and fair transitions for workers, enterprises and communities. From the ILO perspective, social justice is a key component—we believe that no green transition is possible without the input of workers. Every country will take its own path depending on context, but a just transition helps us address climate change while contributing to decent work, social inclusion, and poverty eradication. This shift will bring significant, potentially positive change to the world of work.

Eric (2:38–3:30):
To simplify, imagine someone working in coal mining or at a coal-fired power plant. A just transition would retrain and upskill them so they could work in greener technologies like solar, wind, or hydropower. But switching to clean energy doesn’t automatically mean safe jobs. We also have to address occupational safety and health risks—for example, working on solar panel installations still involves exposure risks.

Diane (3:31–4:08):
There’s clearly a lot involved in the green transition. Our podcast comes out of a project looking at air pollution in the world of work, and our case studies show many workers still lack adequate protection—especially in the informal sector. How can we make sure the green transition includes informal workers, who often aren’t regulated?

Eric (4:09–4:57):
That’s a tough question. Informal workers don’t have access to the social benefits formal workers do. So, tackling air pollution in this context means addressing multiple issues at once. For instance, small street vendors in Southeast Asia—grilling bananas or chicken—are exposed to smoke. How do we help them reduce that exposure and potentially transition to a formal business?

Eric (4:58–6:31):
Governments should be concerned about the smoke generated by informal vending. Innovations can help, but not all are affordable. Switching from charcoal to electric grills still creates smoke, so vendors might need fans to vent it. We should also explore alternative cooking methods—maybe drying instead of grilling. These ideas need more exploration. Another key point is organization. If food cart vendors could form a trade union, their collective voice would be stronger. With that voice, there’s a pathway from informality to formality. The co-benefits of this shift are significant: access to social security, healthcare, and protection from harassment by police or competing vendors. These are some of the challenges and opportunities.

Diane (6:32–6:51):
Can you think of specific policies or incentives that governments could use to support this transition—especially for informal workers like street vendors or family-run businesses?

Eric (6:52–8:09):
Before we get into specific policies, it’s important that governments recognize the health impacts of air pollution—not just on vendors, but everyone around them. Long-term exposure raises healthcare costs, especially from illnesses like lung cancer. Around 15 years ago, the Bangkok Metropolitan Authority tested street dogs and traffic police. Seventy percent of the dogs had lung cancer, and many police officers were also affected. Since then, some police wear PM2.5 masks. For street vendors, numbers have decreased and they’re now more concentrated in organized areas. These changes suggest progress.

Eric (8:10–8:46):
Authorities like the “tessakit”—street vendor police—now help manage congestion by relocating vendors. Thailand seems to be moving toward a model like Singapore’s, with dedicated food courts. These settings also make it easier to introduce safer cooking methods that avoid charcoal and reduce air pollution.

Eric (8:47–9:21):
Improving occupational safety reduces long-term costs. At the same time, formalizing informal workers expands the government’s tax base. Workers gain a stronger voice by joining trade unions. These are just a few of the co-benefits that make these policies worthwhile for governments to pursue.

Diane (9:22–9:48):
So, organizing informal workers seems to be key. This brings us to stakeholders. Besides the obvious actors like Ministries of Labour, Environment, and Health—who else should be involved in ensuring a just green transition?

Eric (9:49–10:43):
The ILO promotes a tripartite approach: government, employers, and workers. On the industry side, businesses must implement innovations to improve sustainability across the supply chain. This requires collaboration and knowledge-sharing with customers, suppliers, and even competitors. Building networks and skills in this area is critical.

Eric (10:44–11:27):
Workers will be essential to environmental sustainability. They are the ones designing and implementing new processes and products. As we saw during the pandemic, workers—especially those early in the supply chain—bear much of the risk and cost. Many of them are women, particularly in sectors like garments and agriculture. Empowering and protecting these workers will be key to building resilience in global supply chains.

Diane (11:28–11:54):
That leads nicely to my next question. Could you share a couple of case studies from Asia that show successful examples of just and green transitions in the labour sector—particularly those related to air pollution?

Eric (11:55–13:00):
One example is from the garment sector in Vietnam. A company called SAITEX produces denim and has transformed its factory to operate with near-zero emissions. They’ve implemented energy-efficient and cleaner production methods. This has improved occupational safety and empowered workers. Now, when workers spot a problem—like a leaking boiler—they speak up and management responds. SAITEX has participated in roundtables with the ILO and the UN Economic and Social Commission for Asia and the Pacific.

Eric (13:01–14:21):
Another example is in Thailand. A company called TPPPI makes cement and previously ran two coal-fired power plants. They have phased out those plants and switched to using plastic waste to generate energy—without greenhouse gas emissions. The leftover ash is then used in cement production.

Eric (14:22–15:24):
If you’ve seen plastic waste in cities, you know how massive the problem is. Some areas have mountains of plastic several stories high. While energy from plastic waste yields 40% less than coal, the environmental trade-offs are worth it. Importantly, TPPPI didn’t lay off any workers—they increased their workforce. Many informal plastic collectors were brought into formal employment to help sort plastics from general waste. The company developed the necessary technology themselves without government incentives. It’s a great example of the private sector taking the lead when they see a cost-effective solution.

Diane (15:25–16:03):
Thank you, Eric. These examples—especially the second one—highlight that workers are exposed not just to pollution at work, but also to ambient air pollution if they work outdoors. Reducing overall pollution levels is essential, and transitions like these—from coal to waste-to-energy—can contribute significantly.

Diane (16:04–16:50):
Thank you so much, Eric, for sharing your insights and the ILO’s perspective on how to make the transition to green jobs just and inclusive. There’s still a long way to go. Our research shows air pollution in the workplace remains a serious issue. But as more companies, workers, and governments become aware of the need for action—not just for health, but also for productivity—we hope to see real progress.

Diane (16:51–17:00):
I really appreciate the time you’ve spent with us today and your willingness to share your knowledge and experience. Thanks very much.

Eric:
Thank you so much, Diane.